Curse

swordfisher · Apr 16, 2006, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Yep, TF is one of the biggest reasons Thumpers can apply pressure. Basically, they make up for only having 12 Weapon Attribute over time by having that weapon flying 33% faster over a long period of time. A Beastmaster Thumper, perhaps the most common), has an 11 second /10r that costs 6e under expertise. In 11 seconds, the ranger has regened 11 energy, and can use a zealous hammer to enjoy the benefits. A hammer under IAS hits about every second; if they all hit, it's like having the net equivalent of two pips (minus the one taken by zealous mod) of regen.
Expertise is the other reason. It allows the Thumper to spam both stances and energy attacks with its two natural pips ( -zealous) and its additional two virtual pips ( +zealous).
Beastmaster Thumpers have pet attacks to complement the range of the hammer. Brutal strike is good for sealing the deal, dealing extra damage when the target is below 50% health. Disrupting Lunge is a spammable pet interrupt that refreshes every 8 seconds. Also, they have the extra autoattack damage from a pet. At 14 BM, the normal attack damage from a pet is significant, if not overwhelming. Combined with a consta-stanced turbo hammer, the Thumper can dish out quite a bit of damage.

(compare to this frenzy, which is a window that must be kept closed much of the time; the most important use of frenzy is in spiking, where the spike skills must follow each other rapidly)

Iskrah · Apr 16, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnoopJeDi

That's a blanket statement, and more importantly, it's wrong. I run a CG interrupter in PvP (granted, RA, but I have run it in TA with success) as R/W, and use flurry. Using flurry, I can keep "Watch Yourself!" up 99% of the time, with some downtime due to movement or emergency situations, etc. Not to mention, I'm getting plenty of hits, and therefore, interrupts.

Plenty of people have success in different arenas with IW Mesmers. It doesn't make it anything else than a crappy build anyway. If we're talking about PvP, I sure hope our standards are not only Arenas, but higher grounds such as HA or GvG. And if we're looking to make an efficient damage-dealer Ranger, it better be with higher standards considering how hard the task is.
You lose on 25% of your damage and chances are you can only focus on your Choking Gas target. Well, that's pretty limited. 1vs1. Better builds have plenty of targets, and the important ability of actually killing the opponent, like the "Blacklight" Necromancer or an E-Surger Mesmer...
Not only stop him from playing. Because you're exactly as inefficient if you're using CG without hurting the target.

SnoopJeDi · Apr 17, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Could you point out a guild that participates in GvG or often does HA that uses a frenzy ranger?

Iskrah · Apr 17, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnoopJeDi

Could you point out a guild that participates in GvG or often does HA that uses a frenzy ranger?

I'm not in defense of Frenzy, it does no good on a Ranger. In higher ranked GvG, Rangers are certainly not using Frenzy, Flurry or Choking Gas, they are playing Poison/Crippler/StormChaser/Blackout, which doesn't use any Increased Attack Speed.

Shinobi Quicksilver · Apr 17, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

TF FTW!!!!!

SnipiousMax · Apr 17, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskrah

I'm not in defense of Frenzy, it does no good on a Ranger. In higher ranked GvG, Rangers are certainly not using Frenzy, Flurry or Choking Gas, they are playing Poison/Crippler/StormChaser/Blackout, which doesn't use any Increased Attack Speed.

I agree. Rangers focusing on damage, have to leave behind money skills...and end up losing their effectiveness.

Dr. Fire · Apr 18, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I used Flurry in the RA for the better part of the day, yesterday and really had no trouble with the increased damage to me unless I wasn't vigilant about keeping Troll Unguent up or kicking in another stance if damage was significant. I also used it and a short bow with choking gas and pretty much shut down casters. Problem, of course, with RA is getting your teammates on the same page. I shut down and killed a Monk, only to find all my teammates were gone! lol! Gotta love the RA.

The Real Roy Keane · Apr 18, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Flurry is a non runner in PvP if you're looking to be a damage dealer.

super dooper · Apr 18, 2006, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskrah

In higher ranked GvG, Rangers are certainly not using Frenzy, Flurry or Choking Gas, they are playing Poison/Crippler/StormChaser/Blackout, which doesn't use any Increased Attack Speed.

depends on the build, mister. flurry is the best choice for a choking gas ranger, partly because with a zealous string and hitting an expertise breakpoint, it's free and you can keep it up as often as you want... chances are if you're playing said character you aren't concerned about wtfpwnzing and doing 500 damage in two shots. you're playing it to screw up the enemy so your team can do that.

rangers are also good at keeping up watch yourself!, and carrying shields up!. aside from that silly comment about r/w's being offbase or not having a good role in pvp or whatever was said, i also agree that tiger's fury is probably the number 1 choice when looking to do damage with a ranger.

Iskrah · Apr 18, 2006, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by super dooper

depends on the build, mister. flurry is the best choice for a choking gas ranger, partly because with a zealous string and hitting an expertise breakpoint, it's free and you can keep it up as often as you want... chances are if you're playing said character you aren't concerned about wtfpwnzing and doing 500 damage in two shots. you're playing it to screw up the enemy so your team can do that.

It's fine. Do that, "mister". And use a whole bunch of shouts and stances, i rest my case, that one player will be subpar to what others can bring. You'll be sitting there with your Choking Gas who has limited mobility, and that can be stopped by simply annoying your Ranger any way you like. You can hide behind arguments like "you're just a spiker" (which i'm not), it's only to hide the inferiority of Choking Gas. It's constant interrupt for people who doesn't know how to time them. I rest my case, I prefer to learn how to time them, AND still be able to spread conditions like a mad man AND Blackout a monk 66% of the time if there is the need. Did you notice that EvIL, WM and Te used it at one point or another?
When it comes to disrupting others, I insist, if you sit there with Choking Gas, you miss out on a lot of options. It's a lazy option for subpar performances. You need a prep and an elite for something that in the end, does nothing but interrupt if only you're safe. That's not enough...

chris_nin00 · Apr 18, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

You guys might want to check out this thread before delving in any further on the topic. It covers the key points of the debate and explains a lot of the aspects talked about here extensively.

Be careful. That thread was simply because it turned into personal attacks. Do not let that happen here or I will smite you all!

Muahahhahahha!

Which one would I choose?
Flurry - No way in hell. 5 energy for 5 seconds of boosted attack speed with 5 second recharge? Talk about energy intensive. 25% less damage? No thanks. The only way I would use this is during farming when I'm building up adrenaline.

Tiger's Fury - I believe this should skill should only stay on a ranger's skill bar, for 2 reasons.
1) Ranger's have Expertise. It lowers the energy cost greatly.
2) It requires beast mastery. I would only need to spend 3 levels of attributes(+minor rune) to get 7 seconds of fun.
I'm not sure about giving this to warriors... again, it's energy intensive, unless you have a zealous mod, and you have to spend points into it. Become a W/R just for tigers fury? Denying all those other great skills in other professions? Nah.

Frenzy - 8 second duration of attack speed boost for 5 energy with 4 second recharge. This skill uses the least amount of energy and gives the biggest output of damage and duration. The double damage taken in? Warriors don't get attacked often, but when they do, all you need is another stance to knock it off.

Rangers = TF
Frenzy = Warriors

Siren · Apr 18, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I'll give my thoughts momentarily regarding the main debate here, but I wanted to address something first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskrah

You'll be sitting there with your Choking Gas who has limited mobility

Not when you have a few targets in range, and can Tab/Shift+Tab effectively. And even then, I'm pretty damn mobile when I'm running my Choking Gas Ranger, because I play intelligently...and strategically.

Quote:

and that can be stopped by simply annoying your Ranger any way you like.

Anyone who relies on physical contact in the current game environment suffers from those annoyances, so how does that reflect negatively on Choking Gas?

Quote:

You can hide behind arguments like "you're just a spiker" (which i'm not), it's only to hide the inferiority of Choking Gas.

Choking Gas is far from inferior. It's one of the best interrupt skills in the game. And in the hands of a solid Ranger, casting anything other than Orison or RoF will be a nightmare.

Quote:

It's constant interrupt for people who doesn't know how to time them.

I use Choking Gas, and I sure as hell know how to time Distracting Shot, Savage Shot, etc. So I don't think you've got a very cogent assessment there.

Quote:

When it comes to disrupting others, I insist, if you sit there with Choking Gas, you miss out on a lot of options. It's a lazy option for subpar performances.

You really haven't gone against good Choking Gas Rangers then, lol. A Ranger running Choking Gas is nothing to sneeze at, especially when they can read the battlefield, mate.

Quote:

You need a prep and an elite for something that in the end, does nothing but interrupt if only you're safe. That's not enough...

Oath Shot {E} is in a Choking Gas build not only for Choking Gas. ~_^

---

Regarding the main topic here, each skill has strengths and weaknesses.

Those supporting the use of Flurry for a Choking Gas build are entirely justified. With CG, you don't care about doing damage; you only care about interrupting. With Expertise and a zealous bow, like someone had mentioned, spamming Flurry is never a problem.

The particular rhythm required for Choking Gas is nearly identical for stance-switching between SQ and Flurry, so it's basically killing two birds with one stone.

For more information, check out the Choking Gas build on page 2 or 3 of this sub-forum.

Frenzy. A lot of people have pointed to Frenzy's duration, its recharge, and stance-switching. They say a good player doesn't worry about the double damage from Frenzy.

But if they happen to run into a Mesmer with particular Illusion Elites...they will begin to realize that they won't be able to stance-switch before that Mesmer has his or her way with them. Apparently, timing--good timing, anyway--is something most people don't take into account. That much is clear from this thread, isn't it?

Frenzy is effective, but only to a point. There will come a time when very few characters will ever take Frenzy. That sounds absurd, I know, but I see it happening, especially when people see how the hazards of Frenzy far outweigh the benefits. Perhaps it'll take Inept instantly killing a 25% DP Frenzying Warrior to do that. ~_^

Tiger's Fury will become a much more viable alternative once Frenzy starts becoming a major liability. Since Warriors and Rangers damn near depend on attack skills to be effective, TF disabling non-attack skills isn't going to matter all that much. Yeah, the cost of TF is prohibitive over time, but there's always Necro Blood, and zealous weapon mods. The duration of it is odd, since it requires a higher Beast Mastery, but maybe that will encourage primary Wars to bring a pet, if only for an extra interrupt or Cripple...and that would be a long-range cripple when you think about it.

Which is the superior skill? It all depends on what you're facing and playing.

Richo · Apr 18, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

flurry is only useful on the illusion weapon mesmers cause they do a xx dmg always do the -25% dmg is negated on other builds dealing 25% less dmg is not nice...
our guild uses TF alot cause it has no downside (except the energy cost and the 7 points in bm) it is still better to lose abit of str then to take double dmg or do 25% less dmg isnt it?

The Real Roy Keane · Apr 20, 2006, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Frenzy is effective, but only to a point. There will come a time when very few characters will ever take Frenzy. That sounds absurd, I know, but I see it happening, especially when people see how the hazards of Frenzy far outweigh the benefits. Perhaps it'll take Inept instantly killing a 25% DP Frenzying Warrior to do that. ~_^

You have it the wrong way around- the benefits of Frenzy far outweigh the hazards associated with it.

SnipiousMax · Apr 20, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

You have it the wrong way around- the benefits of Frenzy far outweigh the hazards associated with it.

I agree, especially since Warriors are generally the last targeted. Ranger's slightly higher on the priority list so....

super dooper · Apr 20, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskrah

...

first, i wasn't talking about the choking gas build except for flurry being best for it because you aren't worrying about doing 500 damage in two shots.

second, i was talking about it from a gvg perspective.. have a ranger in the build with an open slot or two? don't want to put shields up! or charge! on the warrior/s? see.

yes blackout on a ranger is good, yes te/evil/wm have run them, i have too. does that make it the only viable build? no. saying a r/w has no other role besides a thumper is stupid.
--------

frenzy does have its benefits even on a ranger, but having to put a cancel stance on a ranger is blah.

(unless you were already running whirling/dodge/lightning reflex's, but having to put in sprint or rush is kinda eh.)

Siren · Apr 20, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I agree, especially since Warriors are generally the last targeted.

Not if I'm guarding my Monks with my Mesmer. Warrior breaks my aggro bubble to go after the Monks or Necro or whatever, and uses Frenzy? That Warrior will pay dearly for that. When I see Frenzy go up, I zero in. I don't see Frenzy as an IAS at all. I see it as a big sign on their back saying "Kill me." And then I kill them. lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keane

You have it the wrong way around- the benefits of Frenzy far outweigh the hazards associated with it.

IAS, lower recharge, longer duration. That versus taking double damage from everything. I definitely exploit that double damage clause far more than I fear the lower recharge and longer duration.

See, the biggest problem with Frenzy is that I don't see people using the right counters for it.

Spiteful Spirit? The damage comes from them swinging. They stop swinging, there's no damage. Empathy, same deal. Price of Failure shouldn't be used to inflict damage at any time. Insidious Parasite, same thing.

Snaring the Warrior? CripShot, Pin Down, or hexes. They can be removed just the same as SS. And they're not even taking the Warrior out of commission.

Blind them? Same problem as CripShot.

The key to punishing Warriors (or any profession) for using Frenzy is to spike them into the ground. After enough players start spiking Frenzy, people will stop using it. Hell, people should already have been spiking Frenzy. I know I have, and after I did it a few times in a GvG, those Warriors sure as hell were a lot more careful about using it...if using it at all after that.

The trick here is learning that Frenzy is a liability more than an asset, especially when facing players who are more than eager and prepared to punish Frenziers. ~_^

floplag · Apr 20, 2006, 06:31 PM // 18:31

im curious, why not simple little Lightning Reflexes ?

Iskrah · Apr 20, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by super dooper

first, i wasn't talking about the choking gas build except for flurry being best for it because you aren't worrying about doing 500 damage in two shots.

second, i was talking about it from a gvg perspective.. have a ranger in the build with an open slot or two? don't want to put shields up! or charge! on the warrior/s? see.

OKay so we got there a Ranger that has 1 or 2 "free" slots in the build...
What build are we talking about exactly, that allows us to add Flurry? There is a contradiction between the idea of a "free" slot and the fact that that skill is only useful in very rare situations. Flurry on Ranger pretty much negates itself. It doesn't speed up the arrow, so you gain 25% speed for a loss of 25% damage.

So you're not worried about damage, fine, but give an example that proves that idea's worth?

Iskrah · Apr 20, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

The trick here is learning that Frenzy is a liability more than an asset, especially when facing players who are more than eager and prepared to punish Frenziers. ~_^

You're talking about Wammos in Random Arenas. What's your point?
We should count how many times the best warriors use that Stance in a GvG, and see how bad they manage that so-called flaw...